This is a placeholder for lost notes. I will probably never get back to it. I was in the midst of discussing Albanian linguistic origins on an Indo European language post when Facebook completely spazzed out and took off. And everything I wrote was lost. I had posted that the Albanian word for fish was too similar to Welsh—in Irish it’s iasc, and in Welsh, it’s pysc. I can’t remember the Albanian. Thanks to Facebook, I’ve lost the Albanian word.
The upshot is that the word for fish is probably not a Latin loanword... (Why do people assume Latin is always the Ur language for other IE languages, when the PIE word is the model at hand?) O bhuel, perhaps someone will take offense at my post and then I'll be able find it again and finish my thought. (Didn’t happen.
What I'm intrigued by is that this Smithsonian article does not challenge format of the model, which should be in question, it's an example of the historicity of the mapping of IE, with all its (unconscious) biases. If you watch the map, note that German follows modern political borders... and I don't think it was that widespread. And does it predate Celtic? I think not. It's pure supposition.
Oh look, they even forgot to include Celtic in its original homeland, in what is now Austria. Oopise. Celtic had much larger range, and yet gauging by the Smithsonian Magazine map, it's depicted as less than half its original range. Iberia isn't even included. From what I could tell Iberian Gaulish was similar to Gaulish, but there were also similarities to Irish...mainly hard 'c" vs "p."
And then there's are semantic gaffs, "Ancient Turkey..." etc.; clearly the writer has a poor grasp on the subject matter (and history)...the article should've been edited. Also, look to the animated mapmaker. Since when is Business Insider in the linguistics business?
And of course, the out of Anatolia theory is but one model. Gawd, I loved those accidental lessons in linguistics, when I took Old Irish. I was not a good student, in way over my head, but I took a year if it. And I worked hard at it every single day. A classmate was taking Hittite at the same time so I got a peek into Hittite as well.
Got the original Smithsonian Page
See also how I E languages expanded.
What, no Tocharian A? (not Indo-Iranian) Extremely simplistic map, seems to favor German over, and predate Celtic, when it was the other way around. And Celtic had a huge influence, not the minute portion represented on the map. Should have included much of Iberia, All of France, Northern Italy, more of Europe, Bohemia, Balkans, and parts of Anatolia too.
Albanian is later on the scene, Dacian, Illyrian, or even Thracian was probably a predecessor. Oddly, there are also Celtic loan words (or cognates) in Albanian. Probably from the Balkan, or Thracian Celts. (Alba is a Celtic word.... but I think Albania comes from a different word: Ar'banas.) Albanian is from the satem language group, as were Dacian and Thracian. Illyrian was probably a centum language, as were the Celtic languages.
Some of the Latinate loanwords may not be loanwords, but part of the PIE continuum: Albanian: peshk (or pysc/pysg in Cornish and Welsh, and iasc/iasg in Irish). Proto-Indo-European is *pisḱ-.
The Facebook thread drew some ire from my Dutch friend Vins who said Some authority on all these "we knows" would be nice. A simple reference to Eberhard Nestle's NTG gives Saint Paul's Προς Γαλατας. No mention of Κελτοι, whereas Paul knew his Greek very well! Now for Saint Jerome and those Swiss Galli and the rest of above claims."Galatians were Κελτοι" —unlikely, of course, as Paul (no fool, this man!) would have called them so if they had been (like I said). The reference you just gave throws Celts and Gauls often on one heap; and for good measure, throws in the Táin Bó Cúailnge, from manuscripts of the 12th and later centuries. All that does not help scholarly inquiri.
I said Gauls, Galli, Galicians, Galatians were all Celts. Keltoi is merely a Greek word. Exogamic, at that. And gave some references. LOL. tricky in that there was no Celtic writing... unless you count Ptolemy's map of Ireland—transliteration of tribal and place names. The outside looking in.
Below are comments and references from this thread.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1467.html
The Wisdom of the Celts - Google Books
Philosophical Library - 2010 - The Helvetti were a Celtic tribe settledin Switzerland and Gaul (theofficial name ... the Gesatae settled as far eastas Anatolia, Turkey,and named their area Galatia. ... Paul, the Christian apostle, and, according to St.Jerome, one ofthe fathers of ...
One Thousand Languages: Living, Endangered, and Lost
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0520255607
Peter Austin - 2008 - GAULISH Until end of 4th century ce Gaulish, also known as Gallic, was the ... having been identified archeologically at Hallstatt in Austria and La Tene in Switzerland. ... the Galatians, whose language was still used — according to St. Jerome .
Europe: A History - Page 222 - Google Books
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0198201710
Norman Davies - 1996 - Celto-!berians in Spain, of Galio-Romans in Gaul, of Romano-Britons in Britain. Many of ... Helvetii (Switzerland), Treveri (Trier), Parisi (Paris), Redones (Rennes), ... later St Jerome, who came from Trier, correctly noted that the Galatians spoke ...
Video posted in the smiths on Ian article was far too simple. Extremely simplistic map, seems to favor German over, and predate Celtic, when it was the other way around. And Celtic had a huge influence, not the minute portion represented on the map. Should have included much of Iberia, All of France, Northern Italy, more of Europe, Bohemia, Balkans, and parts of Anatolia too. Not just modern boundaries of Celtic languages. (Celtic fringe.). Anglo-centric map. Biased. Using old paradigms.
Vins asked Would anyone be able to provide a dictionary and grammar for Celtic (to any other language)?
I have old Irish grammar books and dictionaries, as well as Hiberneo, and Modern Irish grammars. My linguist teacher Garry Holland at Berkekey did a lot of work on Gaulish grammar—which is surprisingly similar to Old Irish! Don't know about Celtic, per se...it would all be hypothetical, like PIE. At least in Gaulish there was some writing to go by.
At least the Tocharians (A,B &C) thought to write something down. Tocharian is as highly inflected as Irish, both are among the oldest IE languages.
Medieval Welsh was just coming into its own during the "time" of King Arthur, differentiating itself from Brittonic.
As for Celtic, we do know via Sts Jerome & Paul that the same Celtic language that was spoken in Helvetia, or what is now Switzerland was the same language that was spoken in Anatolia. St Paul really didn't like those Celtic party animals. And it's a pity they never wrote back.
I guess we should really call it Gaulish vs Celtic, as they were called out as the Galatians. And those Anatolian Celts did not come by way of Helvetia, but Pergamon.
We don't have Scythian writing either, but it was an IE language, as was Hittite (lots of writing there...)"The Epistle to the Galatians, often shortened to Galatians, is the ninth book of the New Testament. It is a letter from Paul the Apostle to a number of Early Christian communities in Galatia." Galatians were Κελτοι as were Galli.
Galatians: Jerome describes the origin of the Galatians as a Gaulish tribe settled in Asia;
www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vii.iv.iv.html
Galatian language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatian_language
Wikipedia
Galatian was contemporary with and closely related to the Gaulish language. ... that Galatians at the time were already bilingual in Greek, as St. Jerome
... Saint Jerome (writing in AD386/387) remarked in a commentary on St. Paul's ...In the Preface to Book II. Jerome describes the origin of the Galatians as a Gaulish tribe settled in Asia; but he takes them as slow of understanding, and says that the Gauls still preserve this character, j.
No comments:
Post a Comment